tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post3308366752435763847..comments2024-03-26T01:52:45.563-07:00Comments on Fred's Place: The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam: Second Edition, Quatrain XXVIIIFredhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-49886366066426971632015-01-04T11:19:58.163-07:002015-01-04T11:19:58.163-07:00Timothy Hallinan,
When I decided to read The Div...Timothy Hallinan, <br /><br />When I decided to read The Divine Comedy, Ciardi's was one I considered but I went with Lawrence Binyon's because it was a Viking Portable and included other works by Dante. Economically it was a better deal, and now I've grown to really appreciate Binyon's version. Maybe some day I'll take a look at Ciardi's.<br /><br />"the art of failure" I like that. It may be a failure, but he grants it the status of a art form.<br /><br />Yes, that could be a dream voice. The dream voice speaks of beginnings, but when he's awake, he hears harsh reality?<br /><br />Thanks for the kind words--they're always appreciated. I hope you find some time to drop by again,and comments are always welcome.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-28840269408292817832015-01-04T10:33:02.581-07:002015-01-04T10:33:02.581-07:00John Ciardi, who did a wonderful translation of Da...John Ciardi, who did a wonderful translation of Dante in the 1950s (I think) defined translation as "the art of failure." <br /><br />When I read the "voice while sleeping" line I thought it was a dream voice, especially since it retreats as he awakes.<br /><br />This is my first time on your blog, Fred, and it's a knockout.Timothy Hallinanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00551263887774445511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-85569641657602849862014-12-20T09:52:10.877-07:002014-12-20T09:52:10.877-07:00Yeahhh...... Yeahhh...... Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-74198831272049563632014-12-20T07:24:30.396-07:002014-12-20T07:24:30.396-07:00Di,
If one thinks about the misunderstandings and...Di,<br /><br />If one thinks about the misunderstandings and misinterpretations that occur between two people who speak the same language, I suspect the problems of translation between languages are insurmountable. Approximations are the best we can hope for.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-28474158035939426622014-12-20T02:23:39.754-07:002014-12-20T02:23:39.754-07:00Oh of course, of course. I also have to read novel...Oh of course, of course. I also have to read novels translated from other languages because after all I can read only in 2 languages, or 3 if I try hard. It's just that I feel differently about poetry, in which every single word matters and the beauty lies in the sounds, rhyme, rhythm... and I have conflicted feelings about the English translations of our national epic poem (by no means am I blaming or criticising the translators- it's rather the differences between the 2 languages). <br />Please don't misunderstand, it's only a personal and crazy view of mine, and I know I'm limiting myself. I suppose in a few years I'll think differently. Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-33883296439872568282014-12-19T22:58:45.886-07:002014-12-19T22:58:45.886-07:00Di,
True, translations do pose problems, but with...Di,<br /><br />True, translations do pose problems, but without them I would not have any knowledge of writers and poets and their marvelous works. I'll put up with the weaknesses.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-897181758975760932014-12-19T17:36:36.002-07:002014-12-19T17:36:36.002-07:00"That is one of the reasons I do not care for..."That is one of the reasons I do not care for translations from other languages into English." <br />=> Same here. Obviously I'm limiting myself, but I only read poems (original) in 2 languages. I know translators try their best, but poetry's harder to translate than prose and some languages are simply so different. Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-63112201431789101382014-12-19T07:31:09.499-07:002014-12-19T07:31:09.499-07:00Madame Vauquer,
I remember reading somewhere (sho...Madame Vauquer,<br /><br />I remember reading somewhere (should have made a note of it) that FirzGerald himself had said that he wasn't doing a strict translation, but a ??? Memory fades. <br /><br />Comparing the three editions definitely shows FitzGerald did not see his work as being definitive.<br /><br />Translations are always a problem--a word-for-word literal translation or an attempt to capture the sense and sound and imagery and put it in another language.<br />Basho's nameless hills are a good example of this.<br /><br />Frost was asked, frequently--what is poetry? One of his answers was--poetry is what gets left out in a translation.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-68322842180121804132014-12-18T18:49:25.928-07:002014-12-18T18:49:25.928-07:00We are always discussing translations in the Frenc...We are always discussing translations in the FrenchLiterature group. Poetry is extremely problematical, but just in general, the biggest gripe is with translators who actually change or omit things to suit their own purposes. From what I've learned from you and Benny, it appears FitzGerald is guilty of this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-23092171532179690382014-12-18T08:58:49.688-07:002014-12-18T08:58:49.688-07:00R. T.,
Enjoy.
I too have a mystery to finish up ...R. T.,<br /><br />Enjoy.<br /><br />I too have a mystery to finish up shortly--Upfield's _Murder Down Under_. And then, Powell's _A Dance to the Music of Time_, Vol. 2.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-48542921572970133592014-12-18T08:40:19.457-07:002014-12-18T08:40:19.457-07:00Thanks! I will look into the Basho haiku posting. ...Thanks! I will look into the Basho haiku posting. In the meantime, the rest of my morning is set aside for a few more chapters in The Moonstone, a novel that I have posted about this morning at CDI.R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-42323975842533837382014-12-18T08:17:04.596-07:002014-12-18T08:17:04.596-07:00R. T.,
If I were to look for the "true text&...R. T.,<br /><br />If I were to look for the "true text" of the Rubaiyat, I certainly wouldn't be looking at FitzGerald, or at least not alone. I would look at a variety of translations and then try to figure out the original wording. The best way, of course, would be to learn Persian. <br /><br />While teaching class, I would initiate a discussion on the issue of translations and the associated problems. As an example, I gave them a handout with various translations of one of Basho's haiku. I did post them here on June 13, 2009, if you're interested. The title of the post is "Basho's eight nameless hills."Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-897228097627164771.post-15361448368739874712014-12-18T08:00:09.669-07:002014-12-18T08:00:09.669-07:00You touch again upon something that always points ...You touch again upon something that always points to nettlesome issues for me: (1) the problems with translations (especially in poetry); (2) the instability of texts through revisions and editions. I am one of those OCD-types who irrationally obsessives over "discovering" the one true text. Ah, it is a fool's errand, to be sure, but I nevertheless cannot help myself even though I know that "intentional fallacy" is a danger zone. That is one of the reasons I do not care for translations from other languages into English (i.e., I am distrustful of the accuracy -- the divergence from the author's intent). And that is one of the reasons I become so weird about the different versions of Shakespeare's plays -- I obsess over the desire to experience the actual performance texts, and that can never happen. Alas, my obsessions are absurd follies. However, my obsessive self nevertheless admires your dogged pursuit of the "true" text in your Fitzgerald project. Bravo! (But better you than me . . . )R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.com